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Socialist Democracy Feb - Mar 2003

The recent election of Lula in Brazil has raised the hopes internationally, particularly in the third world countries like Nigeria, amongst the working masses of the prospect of a radical shift from the prevailing global pro-rich, pro-capitalist policies to ones geared towards fundamental improvements in the living standard of the ordinary Brazilian masses. What in your views are significance of Lula's election? What are the programmes and outlook of Lula and the PT leadership? Are they capable of bailing Brazil out of its social and economic crisis?

Andre: On the question of election of Lula, we think that it was a big step forward for the working class in Brazil. Lula is a former metal workers who first because publicly known as a representative of metal workers in the ABC industrial districts around Sao Paulo during the military rule in Brazil in the end of the 1970s and beginning of the 1980s. It was the first time a country as unequal as Brazil, one of the most unequal in the world, had elected a former worker as president.

Brazil is very close to Nigeria in some aspects on the question of oppression and exploitation of the masses. In a country like this, the election of a metal worker as a president is a big step and it has a big impact on consciousness internationally. This election also represented a defeat for the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie are mainly the imperialists, the IMF and the speculators and bankers. They didn't want Lula victory in this election. They did what they could to stop this.

They tried to build a bourgeois alternative. When this did not work, they tried to bring Lula more close to their ideas and policies. But we think that the election of Lula was not in the plans of the bourgeoisie. It's a defeat for the bourgeoisie. But how should we now view the PT's situation and the policies of Lula? There is a danger that the masses' expectation of a radical change will be happen, does not really happen. So, the election it is a big step forward but it is not finished yet.

The PT in 1980s was characterised as a left wing party that was against including the tradition of social democracy of Europe and also against the Stalinists, given the experience of Stalinist parties in the eastern Europe and USSR and so on. So, the PT in the 1980s supported the idea of non-payment of foreign debt, the nationalisation of the banks, workers' control in the main sectors including the nationalisation of multinationals and so on. It was a really radical left programme in the 1980s.

Things changed in the 1990s after the collapse of the Stalinists, the PT suffered a shift to the right. Now, the situation is very different. The PT of the 1990s is not the same thing with PT of the 1980s. But there is still something left of the PT of 1980s namely the mass base that PT has among workers and peasantry, etc. But now the main intention of Lula during the election was to convince the Brazilian bourgeois and the imperialists that he will not represent a challenge to them. So, this was the main intention during the election. So, the PT perhaps compromised with an agreement with the IMF because Brazil was in August and September of 2002 in a situation, very close to Argentina situation. We were talking of "Argentinisation"

of the situation in Brazil on the question of economy and Lula during the campaign signed an agreement with the IMF that the PT government will help to cut in social services and continue to pay the debt, etc. So, the problem of PT during the election was not the traditional problem of the PT. It was not the problem that we in the left wing of the social movement and PT supported. But we think that in the government, there will be a new situation. There will be the pressure from below. From one side to the other side, there will be economy crisis with the struggle not with the negotiation but with the struggle of mass movement on the streets to put pressure with the breakdown of IMF, etc. That is the main issue. That the mass movement will have to go to the street and this will precede what will happen in Brazil in the next period.

What are the slogans put forward by your organisation during the said elections?

Andre: Without the mass movement, it will mean Brazil will go toward Argentina situation. There is no alternative to this. But for us during the election, the first thing that we think was important was to make clear that the PT we supported is not the current PT, is not the position of the majority of the leadership of the party during the election. So, simply, we stand against the alliance with bourgeoisie parties like liberal party that has the vice-presidency now. Lula's vice-president is not a member of PT.

He is a bourgeoisie, he is a member of liberal party, so, we stand against these alliances and during the election, we did not call for votes in general for the PT-led alliance, we called votes for Lula a critical votes because of the PT's programme and the alliances. We also called the vote for the candidates for members of parliament who were from the left wing of the PT.

We thought it as necessity to give more strength to the left wing of the party, not all the party with one of our slogans "Our PT is socialist and without bosses". Just to show the social basis of the PT that there are really two PTs. There is one that is close to the bourgeoisie and there is one confined by the leadership but has links with mass movement and trade unions and the youth.

We also stood against the general economic programme presented by the PT on the agreement with the IMF, on the payment of debt and general economic policies. Lula for example said Brazil needs more 10 million jobs in the country and this generated big expectation of this question. We agree that Brazil needs 10 million jobs and also Lula said every Brazilian needs to eat 3 times a day and this is a big issue in Brazil as there is hunger.

So, we supported this. But what we think is that the only way to get this is to break with IMF and imperialist, non-payment of the bad debt with nationalisation of financial system and with the economic plan for nationalisation of some enterprises that are needed for the economic plan of anti-capitalist and socialist character. We stood for these during the elections and we went to build a support for left wing idea as the left wing is still alive in the workers movement in Brazil and also in PT.

We think that in the first period, the PT proposal for social pact was supported by Bush strongly because they did want workers to organise strike but just to wait for the solution peacefully. But we think that some layers of the workers could have illusion in the first period. They will think that they have the president now (a worker) with the bosses in the table and the trade unions and the movement that they are in majority and may be they could get something without hard struggle, etc. For a period, probably, this illusion will remain, but this will not be forever.

What are the perspectives for the working masses as a consequence of this victory?

Andre: In our own opinion, the question of return of masses struggle in new situation with Lula's government will be prospective in the next period, in next year. For example, the question of minimum wage for the public sector workers could provoke demonstration and struggle, which has not been increased for 8 years.

The question of land, the landless movement and the question of agrarian reform and the question of the demand of the students' movement that is very strong, etc. So, there is prospect that the mass movement will be done with more force than before. There is also the perspective of very difficult economic situation because, probably in the next year, we will be in recession.

More than this, there is possibility of financial crisis because of the problem of the debt in the country. This is a time-bomb that can explode at any moment including the first month of next year. So, the question of mass movement with financial crisis can provoke an explosive situation like in Argentina but with a difference that there is a little bit organised left PT and out PT can put the possibility of building socialist force stronger than before. So, there is no solution for the economic crisis if Lula doesn't break with imperialist, IMF, etc. So, that is going to be a build-up to instability, crisis, struggles, resistance and the opportunity to build socialist alternative.

You had elections recently in Sweden. What is the political significance of the outcome of the said elections?

Ingrid: Less people voted than before, the most important thing was that the right wing had a catastrophic result. They lost a lot of votes because people rejected their policy of big privatisation and cuts in the welfare system. The most important issue for us is to defend the public sector, the welfare system and also the public workers and demand wage increases and better working conditions for them. That has been our main campaign during the eleven years we have been councillors in Sweden but also we raise naturally the question about socialism being necessary to protect the welfare system. In the long run, we have to have control over the big banks and the big companies in Sweden. Another important question is that of racism, to fight both racism and racism that have developed in Sweden. We have grassroot campaigns with young and old people who will be active every night and day in the working class areas.

We stood out in different parts of the town and met people and discussed with them. I think we have the most energetic campaign in all the parts of our town and the response was really good. We have very strong feeling that a lot of people spoke about us. They discussed us on work places and so on. Not all of them voted for us, but we had feeling that a much broader layer of people is looking at us and are interested and follow what we do on our work and perhaps in the next election, some of them will vote for us. So we increased our votes by 40% and won an extra seat.

Another important issue is that people are angry with the salaries the politicians give themselves at the same time as they demand that the low paid workers should not demand high wages. We have the policy that we remain on a workers wage. We get some money to be in the council but all that goes directly to our campaigns and to our party. This is a big thing for us, we always tell people that we don't earn any money being councillors. We do not personally keep our salaries. We give them away to campaigns and so on. And also often in our leaflets publicise the wages of other councillors and a lot of people like to read that and to really get to know how much they earn, what privileges they have and so on.

But naturally, the other parties and politicians don't like it. They get angry. But in Sweden, being a councillor, there is not so much money and privilege. You get some small money every month because its only a part-time. It's one day and most people have ordinary job on the other days. But the higher politicians in the government and also in the councils, there are those who work full time for the councils, have high wages and travel to many places. We never do that stuff. We used to display our protests against this on the fence outside our party office.

We were a bit afraid in the beginning that people will not be motivated to stand in the streets collecting money. We have both increased our subs and our incomes from the daily work with paper sales and fund raising. And we try to use the money that we get from the council seats to both to campaigns and investing in a better party apparatus.

The CWI of which your party is an affiliate strongly believes in a party or organisation primarily funded by the subs of its members so as to avoid corruption and influence of alien ideas.

How has the financial fortune of your party (arising from the huge sum being paid to elected councillors) affected the payment of the subs by the generality of the members of the party?

Ingrid: In the beginning, when we first were elected to council in 1991, we had a lot of discussions about two and we were all afraid that perhaps some members would think that now it's not necessary to be out in the streets to collect money and so on. But it hasn't happened. People are more motivated now because we have the council seats. They can see that we can take issues from work places and from the streets directly into the council. So, it has not been the case.

The US imperialism and its allies are planning to wage a war on Iraq ostensibly as part of the struggle against international terrorism. How does the Socialist Alternative view the reasons put forward by the Bush administration over this issue?

Tyron: On the question of Bush war on Iraq, we recently held a public meeting called "Ending Bush's lies -argument for anti-war movement". And at that meeting in January, we put forward that the supposed motivation for war-weapon of mass destruction, bringing democracy to Iraq and threat of terrorism the Bush is using to justify this war are completely bogus. We believe that the real motivation for this war for US imperialism is to give an example of its military power and secure control over Iraq, which has the world's second largest oil reserves.

The Bush administration is seeking to use the events of September 11 to justify to American people and working masses of the world US imperialist aims. So we say this war is fundamentally about the attempt of the US multinationals, the US ruling class to create a new world order which Bush senior initially declared. Now Bush junior wants to fulfil his father's dreams and establishing US capitalism as even more damning and repressive force around the world. This war on Iraq is to send a message to anyone, any movement, any nation, who will stand up against the interest of US imperialism and to show them that they will face complete destruction if they stand up against US imperialism.

Against the background of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 on the WTO, what is the general mood of the US workers and youths over the proposed war on Iraq?

Tyron: After the September 11 of course, the nation was shocked into confusion. US workers raged at the mass destruction in New York in particular and are enraged that anyone for any reason who chose to conduct this outrageous attack on ordinary New York workers. However, in the aftermath of Bush war on Afghanistan and now the preparation of war on Iraq, the mood has so much shifted. In fact, we see a tremendous polarisation of views in our society. There is still a section of workers, young people and of course middle class who still feel for security and therefore are behind the Bush administration.

But there are growing layers who see the fact that Bush is not only attacking working people abroad with his supposed war on terrorism but is using the strength that he gained from this war to cut living standards at home by attacking working people, young people and immigrants. So, there is a growing mood of anti-Bush sentiment and that is crystallised in the anti-war movement in the US which is big now, before the war on Iraq has actually started, as was the anti-Vietnam war movement in the late 1960s and early 1970s after 5, 10 years of fighting. The culminating event of the anti-Vietnam war movement was 200,000 people marching in the Washington DC , today's anti-Iraq war protests have been at least the same size.

As the most developed capitalist country in the world today, that is a country accounting for 76% of the total economies of the advanced capitalist countries in the western hemisphere, what is the living standard of the American working class like?

Tyron: Living standard of American workers is quite different and I think most people around the world imagine is nothing like you see on the TV or on the movies. In reality, American has one of the highest polarisation of wealth in the world. The gap between the rich and the poor in America is bigger than its been in the entire history of our country today. And we see now the new economic recession forcing conditions of the working poor even worse. So, most workers have been forced to take two jobs, 3 jobs, the cost of living in many US cities is rising at a much faster rate than workers are able to compensate for and this fact is captured by the fact that an average American worker is deeply finding it difficult with living standard.

What is the overall living conditions of the black Americans today as compared with the pre-civil right movement of the 60s?

Tyron: Of course, the civil right movement in the 60s tremendously raised, especially on the political level, the conditions of Black Americans but from the point of view of social condition, actually, for most black Americans, the situation has gotten worse. They face naked racism and American version of apartheid up to the 1960s. But they certainly face racism in terms of employment, in terms of housing, in terms of schools, in terms of police brutality and on the question of segregation of the schools, one of the major initiatives that the civil right movement took up, in fact, today, even though segregation ego sense has been bent, in reality, the cities and towns in America remain segregated.

And the public schools, in fact for all intents and purposes remain quite segregated. And of course, the schools for young blacks and other minorities in the US attract the worst funding, worst conditions and these have expressed themselves in mass demonstrations against police brutality, and we can foresee in the future a growing mass movement of working black people in resistance to racism but also to the economic condition and we think in the next period, this will express itself in class terms.

What are the perspectives for the growth of the socialist alternative in the US?

Tyron: I think the first thing to say is that there is a tremendous vacuum in US society that is huge outrage, huge anger at the establishment. The scandals of Enron and co. have had a tremendous impact. But the fact is that the defeats of the last two decades have left the working people without the kind of class consciousness that we find in most countries around the world. And so, it is a question of rebuilding the class consciousness and beyond that for a need of socialism for building the fight for social condition against the capitalist class and in fact, to take them over.

So, we feel that in the next coming period, there will be explosive movement of US workers and youth and the prospects of building the currently small socialist forces in this country are quite good. We are setting a target in the next period of growth and we find more and more as we go into community, we've getting a better and better response. The old days of the cold war, with people equated socialism/communism with totalitarianism are disappearing, especially for the young generation and there is a new opening to socialist and revolutionary ideas that we've not seen in decades.

On the 2nd December, 2002, Venezuela's opposition leaders declared a national strike, demanding the immediate resignation of the President Hugo Chavez. Earlier in 2002, the opposition had demanded a referendum, which the National Electoral Council had acceded to before the Supreme Court annulled the decision.

As it ground on through a seventh week, the national strike has effectively crippled the oil industry; it has also led to a shutting down of the state's oil firm, PDCSA, where production has reduced by more than 90% (and that is because the strikers chose to supply enough fuel to keep the lights on and protect heavy industries, whose machines would be damaged by a shutdown). Venezuela, the world's fifth exporter of oil, is losing around $50m per day in oil exports alone. The strike has also started hitting other industries and there are fears of food and gasoline shortage and increased street violence among the populace.

The Class War

The national strike (which probably includes element of a lock-out) isn't exactly a class war between the Venezuelan working class and the presidency. Rather, the opposition is headed by the bosses organisation FEDECAMARAS, most of the middle class and their "civic" organisations, section of the military and the labour bureaucracy in the leadership of the Venezuelan confederation of workers (CTV). This bloc is also supported by the corrupt, rich 'oligarchy', which sees Chavez's constitutional and land reforms as the work of a "crazed Marxist".

However, Chavez is no socialist revolutionary. He is a former army chief, who retains passionate support amongst most poor Venezuelans, which depends on oil revenues within a creaking capitalist economy. The country's is thus enmeshed in series of pro-Chavez and anti Chavez demonstration often ending in clashes with police.

The background to this bitterly fought class struggle is Venezuela's parlous economy. Like other south and central American countries, the downturn in world economy and the collapse of stocks and shares on world financial markets has also hit Venezuela. Its economy shrank by a massive 10% between April and June 2002 alone, mainly as a result of the ruling class and international financiers moving money out of the country.

Capitalism's Failure

Around $8 billion (equivalent to 8% of Venezuela's economy) was siphoned out of the country in 2002 alone. By some measures, 85% of the country's 23.5 million population live on the bread line. Capitalism has failed and must be replaced. In fact, the US government does not hide its disdain of the Chavez regime (despite his own limitations); he is alleged of trying to install a Cuban-style communism in the oil rich nation. The US state department has called for national elections as the only possible solution!

Forward To A Peoples Take Over

In April 2002, Venezuela's oligarchy, backed by the US administration, attempted a coup d'etat, removing Chavez and installing a businessman, who promptly set about suspending democratic rights. The coup attempt however fell apart on the third day, when thousands of pro-Chavez supporters, mainly from poor neighborhoods of the capital Caracas, marched on the presidential palace demanding his release and restoration as president.

The lessons of the April failed coup and the mass protests that led to its failure should guide the Venezuelan working class and should inform the need for them to organise to prevent the forces of reaction from succeeding.

Democratically elected committees of workers and the poor must be set-up in the work places and neighbourhoods, with armed defence militias. Soldiers too should establish rank and file committees. There should be no trust in reactionary officers.

Above all, the workers and peasants must build their own independent and democratic movement and fight for a workers’ government with a programme of socialist change.

What are the issues behind the seemingly endless war, suicide bombings, etc., going on between the Israeli state and the Palestinian masses?

At the roots of the conflict are, basically, the socialist issue at work, meaning inability of capitalism to provide decent standard of living for the masses of the region, the unfulfilled Palestinian aspirations for a state and the fact that Israeli state tends to serve the interest of imperialism in the region. Their term of achieving peace of course is due to failure because on the capitalist basis, it was not possible nor would it be in the future to solve this difficult issue. Same also occur to Palestinians. Most Palestinians, their living standard deteriorated, their living standard does not improve and this meant that an eruption was likely to happen at certain point which is what happened in September, 2000.

How does your organisation view the militaristic, strong arm strategies of the Israeli state vis a vis the agitation of the Palestinians for self-determination on the one hand and the security and economic welfare of the Israeli working class people and youths?

It is clear that there is no military solution. It is clear that it is not possible for the Israeli ruling class to quash the intifada by force. They've been trying this for the last two years, they've not been able to quash the intifada and of course these repeated offensive incursion into populated are the curfew, the closure, etc., they cannot provide security for ordinary Israeli. That is very clear to anybody with opened eyes. They can perhaps prevent at a cost some of the bombings but the presence of the army, the ongoing occupation, curfew, the humiliation of hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians create the condition for the next wave of bombings. So, we have in a way a dead end now because the intifada strategy that couldn't lead to genuine national and social liberation and on the other side the Israelis ruling class is totally incapable of providing general security and peace to Israelis.

You have many Israelis who are sent to carry out reserved duties in the occupied territories repeatedly for a number of days. Emergency call-ups are increasing. At the age of 18 or 19 Israeli men serve 3 years in the army and women two years, after that they go back to serve at least one month a year in the army until they are in their 40s. We now have a growing number of reservists who are refusing military service not necessarily because of political objection but because they cannot provide for their families. Generally, the conflicts are exacerbating sharp economic recession. Israel is going through over the last two years. It is not solely responsible for the economic crisis. The other reason includes the world economic downturn but the Israeli are paying the price for huge defence expenses, the collapse of stories industries, fleeing of investments from the country, etc.

The militaristic strategies of the Israeli state has obviously failed to stamp out the spate of suicide bombings by the Palestinians activists of Israeli targets, what effects has this being having over the ordinary Israeli people? 

Put differently, has this approach produced or likely to produce a mood amongst ordinary Israeli masses capable of forcing the Israeli state to acquiesce to the demand of the Palestinians for a homeland?

We approach this issue of suicide bombings not from moral point of view because some action carried out by the Israeli military and some of the Jewish Settlers in West Bank in Gaza strip just as appalling but form the point of view of the strategy needed for the Palestinians to liberate themselves, the suicide bombings turn totally unproductive because the political outcome of these bombings is that ordinary Israeli workers are driven to the hands of the most reactionary politicians because they feel that their families existence is threatened. An effective strategy for the intifada will be instead first of all to democratise their struggle to build democratic popular committees to conduct struggles from below and at the same time to appeal to ordinary Israelis as well as soldiers against the Israelis ruling class because Israelis workers also suffer from the policies of the government not just on the issue of peace and security. They suffer from the exploitation by the Israelis capitalists, from the right wing neo-liberal economic policies of Israeli government.

What in your views are the issues and programmes needed to achieve an atmosphere of permanent peace and economic security for the working masses of both Israeli and Palestine?

It is clear that the National Liberation of the Palestinians and the social liberation of the masses Israeli-Palestine and all regions of the Middle East will only possible within the framework of struggle against capitalism. Basically against the ruling elite of the whole region which means against Israeli capitalism, against the corrupt Palestinian authorities and against bourgeoisie of the whole region. 

So, the struggle may not be united at the onset but as the class struggle develops, as the Palestinian masses increasingly see the treacherous and damaging role of the leadership of the Palestinian authorities as well as the Islamic organisation offering no way forward, there could be possibility of linking the struggle. So, its primarily the tasks of Israeli workers and youth to topple the government and ruling class in Israel and for Palestinians to struggle both against Israeli occupation and against the wrong, repressive and corrupt leadership of the PLO. 

Only through struggles on both sides will it be possible to create unity in struggle that could provide basis for genuine lasting peace and we mean by that creating, out of revolutionary struggle, a socialist Israel and independent socialist Palestine. Of course, we call for the right of the Palestinians to self determination unconditionally but the past years have shown that there cannot be a genuine independence for Palestinians under the framework of capitalism and the struggle to socialist state could provide the basis for socialist confederation of the whole middle-east which could then relatively swiftly move to solve the issues of poverty, unemployment, on refugees problems as well as the right of Palestine refugee. This is really the only way.

It's now over one decade that capitalism has been re-introduced into Kazakhstan after the collapse of the planned economy of the former Soviet Union, what are the conditions of the working class and youth in capitalist Kazakhstan?

IONUR: The result was the called, in neo-liberal slang, the extraction of the economy. Now, we have total collapse of all sectors of our economy and social structures which means health insurance, schools, hospitals and everything. It was old communist party bureaucracy which got everything in this country. And it was youth and the working class which lost everything: hospitals, schools, free education, future.

Internationally, the collapse of Stalinism is presented as the failure of socialism as an organisation fighting for a socialist world, how does the Kazakh workers and youth react to your programme and activities?

IONUR: At the beginning of the 1990s it was mixed, although many people still believed in the vision of a about Marxist system, despite all the terrible effects of Stalinism. But now, according to social research, 80% of people do not like their position, the situation in the society and 70% of people live on the thin line of poverty. It is determined by the economic situation that very wide layers of young workers came into our movement, came into socialist organisation. It's not just the problem of choice, it's the problem of life, of survival. People want to survive. We think that our main task now is to free the communist movements, to free workers' movements from any remaining Stalinist influences. Now, a lot of people come to our organisation, not to Stalinist organisations but to us. There are less illusions in the West as Kazakhs can see that American, British, French, Belgium multi-national companies coming in and buying everything in terms of plants, mines and everything. This helps the real, anti-Stalinist, communists.

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